THE CLASH - punk?

[ixnayray]

So i know the word PUNK covers a lot of ground, but when i hear people say THE CLASH are one of their fave punk bands... it makes me wonder.

Me? I loves me some Clash BUT my least favorite of their output would be their first self titled album [the only true punk one] and GIVE 'EM ENOUGH ROPE which i think was an abortion. They didn't even like it themselves.

So this leaves us with LONDON CALLING - which is pure and simple rock 'n' roll.

SANDINISTA - mainly funk, dub reggae, hip-hop and soul.

COMBAT ROCK - basically the musical equivalent of an arthouse movie.

CUT THE CRAP - i won't even comment on this one, for obvious reasons.

So none of these are really PUNK in any way.

... what do YOU think. do people just name them as they are easily identifiable? do you think their only PUNK album was the first one? or am i completely wrong?

[Johnny Singles]

I'd agree that the eponymous first LP is the only truly 'punk' of The Clash's albums but that's precisely why it's my favourite. For me White Riot is pretty much one of the quintessential 70s British punk tracks (far more so than Anarchy in The UK or any of The Sex Pistols' other offerings).

I'm always quite surprised when people knock the first Clash album, it's not exactly flawless but I do think it's by far one of the best albums of that ilk. I know the slightly remixed, slightly different US version is a little less frantic and a touch poorer than the UK version for some reason, but that really doesn't explain the degree to which it get criticised... Oh, I don't know...

I'd would agree that Joe wasn't exactly the most charismatic or overtly passionate of interviewees but I disagree that this somehow makes him disingenuous or not authentic as a punk figure, especially in comparison to Lydon. Yes, Lydon is/was more extraverted and full of 'angry young man' punk rhetoric in interviews, but then I've always found The Pistols as a whole to be a bit of a one trick pony and a more that a little all-mouth-and-no-trousers (after all this is a band constructed by McLaren with their image as the primary concern). For all his punk posturing and insipid social commentary Lydon's actual politics have always been somewhat lacking (this is of course a 53 year old man still flogging his punk credentials whist shilling butter for a living...)

Personally I think in both musical and political terms 'The Clash' is an archetypal British punk album, and surely punk album = punk band regardless of whatever style of band they might later transform into?

[Gas-House Gorilla]

Interesting take Johnny Singles. We're on the same page regarding the first Clash album being supreme. I do disagree with your views on Strummer compared to Lydon though. I really do love the early Clash stuff, and Strummer is tremendous (I enjoy the 101ers quite a bit too). I think you're attaching way too much importance on the Clash (and Strummer) being "political" - as if that somehow elevates their importance as a punk band. It doesn't. All that matters is delivering the goods - which the Clash certainly do. Where I really find fault in your opinion is that Strummer is quite disingenuous. The immediate event that comes to mind is his spouting B.S. communist propaganda at the Us festival - while collecting (and later blowing) a healthy amount of cash from Steve Jobs. Lydon on the other had is completely captivating (and the Sex Pistols also deliver the goods musically - don't discredit them because of that clown McLaren). I have no idea where he stands on "issues", and that is part of what makes him so utterly fascinating. He's like the Andy Kauffman of rock-n-roll. He never gives you a wink, and lets you in on the joke.

[Johnny Singles]

Aaah, to be fair, hands up, I think you've got me there to a certain extent...

I'll admit that I'm probably guilty of the all too common failing of looking through my rose-tinted-clash-fan glasses and ignoring some of Joe's less admirable and contradictory characteristics; his socialist rhetoric vs. his actual money grubbing ways and so forth (but too be wholly fair who's never been caught in that trap? Dylan soon flung away his principals when Microsoft came a-calling).

It's no secret that the early days of London punk had no real agenda. Haircuts, tight trousers and posing took precedence over any coherent political ethos beyond angry sloganeering and god ol' fashioned unfocused teenage rebellion (and I've absolutely no problem with that...) and obviously everything about The Pistols fits perfectly in that mould. The fact that The Clash were one of the first to attach a slightly more articulate political message makes them a slightly more interesting listen for me personally, but I'll agree that this alone isn't enough to elevate them above any of their punk contemporaries. On pure musical chops though I still think that first Clash album has the edge over most. Don't get me wrong, I do rather like The Sex Pistols but I've always found them just a touch lacklustre in comparison to some other bands of that ilk, and their status as THE defining British punk band has always annoyed me somewhat (this is just my opinion based on the tunes, and I know I'm in the minority here...). The Pistols' stature seems founded more on their image and media outrage at the time (which was largely based on the 76 Today Show appearance which is just cringeworthy - with regards to both the band and Bill Grundy's behaviour) rather than their actual musical efforts.

I think possibly your giving Lydon a little too much credit there, for me his early antics have always smacked a little of teenage petulance rather than any considered subversive performance - and yes, that is very in keeping with those early punk ideals, but I just find it a little hollow.

It maybe sounds like I'm being a bit harsh on ol' Lydon and The Pistols, obviously Nevermind The Bollocks... deserves a place in the punk pantheon, just maybe not the top-spot, and hell, for his faults Lydon isn't nearly as vacuous as some we could mention (...cough - Sid Vicious - cough...)

Aaaanyway, seem to have got a little off topic here...

[Liam]

This has got me thinking, which makes a change, so here is my 2p worth, rightly or wrongly, but just my opinion.

I remeber at the time that a lot of stuff that could not be classified nicely was labelled initially as punk, when in fact they were mainly pub bands jumping on the bandwagon at the time or idiots trying to cash in on a then new movement. Who can forget the anarchic Jilted John?

I kinda belive in the two waves of punk, firstly the likes of The Pistols, The Clash , The Damned et al were a new sound, as opposed to the mediocrity on the radio. Their roots totally in line with pure Rock & Roll. Listen to The Pistols "Spunk" album. They sound like a bloody good pub band but were in the right place right time, with the right attitude. The Clash were always being accused of wanting to be the Stones but they were far more deeper than that. As for the Damned, a bunch of nutters who did the right thing and got up and played, not caring who liked them. They brought fun back into music. The rebel attitude was pouring from these bands ala Brandos' character Johhny in The Wild Ones. It was this lot that changed and mapped out my life so I will always be grateful to them.

It took a while for the movement to settle down and then the split.

One portion, did sort of distance themsleves from the media circus that was punk, such as Joy Division, Killing Joke, Bauhaus, The Banshees and The Ants. The second wave of punk bands however, were as created in the main by the media, leathers, mohicans, glue, crazy colour hair and loud fast music. Nothing wrong with that, saw The Exploited, Actifed and Vice Squad loads of times, but I guess it was not really saying much.

To answer the question (finally) whilst The Clash were sincere and wanted to change the world, they did drift away from the punk ethos of the media but retained their intergrtiy by trying new stuff all the time. I woudl still rate The Clash as one of my all time top ten Albums. Top Ten punk album? Not so sure now I think of it.

Hope taht makes sens and was not too long winded.

[tobi joi]

the clash are punk, it is their attitude that was punk all the way from the way they looked to the way they sounded
did you know that the word punk was first used by a radio dj from texas in 1966 describing the standells sound?

[ixnayray]

yeah i hear what you're saying ... but that's my point, i don't think you can categorize The Clash's sound.

[Gas-House Gorilla]

I know I'm taking this a bit further off topic, but I think Johnny Singles brings up a great point about the Sex Pistols being considered THE defining British punk band. I would take this a step further, and say they've been anointed as THE defining punk band period. And it's a bit nauseating. It's as if it's too difficult for the listening public, and music industry as a whole to actually listen to the music - but instead define the pioneering punk movement based solely on perception. You mentioned their Today Show appearance. I'd say that, along with the 60 Minutes piece done in the U.S., defined not only the band, but the entire punk rock scene to an unacquainted audience. Since then, I think there's been a bit of a backlash by the true music fans, such as yourself - annoyed that punk became this label, associated greatly with the Pistols, and upset about the lack of recognition for the other great punk acts of the era - most notably the Clash. And while I agree there are things to scoff at regarding the Sex Pistols - you mentioned both McLaren and Vicious (and the band was over once Matlock left, as far as I'm concerned). Also, it's annoying seeing the overly simplistic recognition place upon the Sex Pistols. However, the backlash against the Pistols by music fans is generally unwarranted, and is often not based on the music itself.
Btw - we all know that THE defining punk band is really the Ramones.

[Brother Panti-Christ]

Isn't PUNK the name the tough guys in prison called the little guys they fuck in the ass?? That's what I heard!

[tobi joi]

whether or not the clash is punk is in the end irrelevant they were an amazing band hard working producing tons of great songs and giving generations to come the pleasure of rebellion against their parents or something else
remember in the stone roses first big interviews they said this is rave music & then like 5 or 6 years later ravers became xtc popping cokeheads that go to clubs & listen to a rhythm-mashine and call it music or just listen to what they call soul music or rhythm & blues today it makes me puke
yeah i think the ramones started it all wherever they went they left a trail of new bands but one of my all time favorites of british 77 era punk were the drones or what about the jam the first 2 albums were very punky before they got labeled mods
anyway i just got the dvd called unknown passage it's the dead moon story, now check this movie out and tell me why aren't they in the r'n'r hall of fame
love
tobi joi

[THE TEXREYS]

This old chestnut !
Of course The Clash were and still are a Punk band.
They were there at the beginning when it happened in the UK.
Just because a band grows and changes musically doesn't cancel out who they are.
I've heard this argument so many times, by the so-called "Punk Police"
It always comes from someone who wasn't there when Punk happened.
I don't want to sound precious, but I bought their first album when it came out.
I'm a fan...and like any band they made some crap records, I won't deny that.
But when all is said and done...The Clash were a Punk band.
Cheers
Wig

[b0nes tra5hyf]

ya know, I can 't say that i've heard a lot of clash punk. i heart punk i hear harmony?

[RayDanger]

It depends on your definition of PUNK. I'm really big on the Ramones and use them as a bench mark for Punk or Punk Rock. Many fans of the Clash sight them as Punk, not for adhering to a particular sound, but for being politically outspoken.