The Ramones. They did more than three records, ya know...

[John Battles]

How many of you are of the opinion that  THE RAMONES did NOT jump the shark after their 4th , or even third , album? The way I see it , they never did a BAD album , even if some material was'nt up to par. In the 80's and 90's , their worst still beat the competition at their best . Their shows and their records always had a magic about them, even when they were no longer breaking new ground.   What are some of your favorite later Ramones albums , and why? Any favorite songs that most people are barely cognizant of.     BTW , Joey's second posthumous solo album is much better than anyone had a right to expect. Give it a go.

[Mole]

For me, the 1st album is far and away their best, more in terms of the concept of the production. I don't know of ANY other record made in '76 that has that almost 4-track production, with guitar and bass panned hard left and right. My understanding is that they were very influenced by early 2- and 4-track Beatles recordings, and were trying to capture that feel. Job done lads! Saying all that, I'm with Michael Cynic, it's really only the 1st 3 LPs that count. After that, for me it's an unsuccessful attempt at commercializing their sound ad reductum.

[Brandon]

well said, though they we're always trying to commercialize in fairness...they thought road to ruin would be top of the fucking pops and it really should have been. the early albums we're straight up american pop songs (in a good way if that makes sense).

[John Battles]

You hit on it , right there , Mole. The Ramones were a concept , that had to be witnessed in the first few years of their existence to truly fathom. Everyone I know who saw then from 76 - 78 says so , with the possible exception of my Brother. But , most of us did'nt have the benefit of being old enough or hip enough to have seen them , that early on. That does'nt mean I'd trade back a single time that I did see them , from 84 - 96. With the second and third albums, they streamlined what they had on the first  album , just enough.....No , there WAS nothing like that first album , production - wise in '76. People who heard it , then , have told me it scared the shit out of them .
 
Mole said:

For me, the 1st album is far and away their best, more in terms of the concept of the production. I don't know of ANY other record made in '76 that has that almost 4-track production, with guitar and bass panned hard left and right. My understanding is that they were very influenced by early 2- and 4-track Beatles recordings, and were trying to capture that feel. Job done lads! Saying all that, I'm with Michael Cynic, it's really only the 1st 3 LPs that count. After that, for me it's an unsuccessful attempt at commercializing their sound ad reductum.

[John Battles]

Well , Brandon , You're right , too.....The Ramones tried to make their sound more commercial , or Sire tried to get them to do so by going for superstar Producers instead of Tommy Erdelyi ( Tho' I , too ,like Richie Cordell's production on"Subterranean Jungle" , but , again , the record would have benefitted from a real drummer throughout.) . But , a lot of their later songs only really sounded commercial in OUR world. Never mind the charts , they were'nt even getting airplay !    Barring Public Radio , and George Gimarc("PUNK dIARY")'s late night show in Dallas , I heard The Ramones a total of ONCE on the airwaves , when they were still a band. I still think "Road To Ruin" is a great album. I even like the "Country Rock" stuff , but , it was their way of keeping up with the changing times ("Punk is Dead" was already the word on the streets by 78-79.), without losing their edge or their identity.  I DON'T THINK THEY REALLY FELT LIKE THEY'D HIT A BRICK WALL UNTIL "END OF THE CENTURY", If only because it was'nt up to their own expectations , and because Spector was a little...um ....meshuggah.

But , as I recall , Punk was getting coverage in the magazines , but, outside of Documetary footage, you'd scarcely see any of these bands on Television. You would'nt have heard them on the radio or in record stores , unless , maybe, you lived somewhere like LA or NYC.

THE LACK OF COVERAGE , SOMEHOW , AFFORDED THE RAMONES  A CHANCE TO BUY SOME TIME. "ROCK'N'ROLL HIGH SCHOOL " COMPLEMENTED THE RAMONES IN EVERY POSSIBLE WAY , EXCEPT COMMERCIAL VIABILITY , OR EARNED CREDIBILITY (THE CRITICS SEEMED JUST AS MIXED IN THEIR REACTIONS AS THE RECORD BUYING PUBLIC , FROM THE WORD "GO").      BESIDES , THE WRITING WAS ON THE WALL - "THE 80'S ARE COMING ! BE A-SCARED !!!".

 
Brandon said:

well said, though they we're always trying to commercialize in fairness...they thought road to ruin would be top of the fucking pops and it really should have been. the early albums we're straight up american pop songs (in a good way if that makes sense).

[The Ultimatemost High]

Bands have to grow, experiment, and make music for the present day.  Restricting oneself from development is a one-way street to self-parody. 

 

When it comes to bands with extensive discographies the Ramones is stronger than most.  Even their most scrutinized efforts are miles ahead than many artists best accomplishments. 

 

I find it strange that albums such as ‘End of the Century’ and ‘Pleasant Dreams’ aren’t held in as high regard as their earlier LP’s. The songwriting is so strong and the sweat is there.  I do believe the media and even members the band like to hate on these albums to make the legend more interesting.  It doesn’t appear to me that it’s a popular opinion among fans.

 

That being said, the point at which I feel the Ramones began to stumble was around ‘Animal Boy’ and ‘Halfway to Sanity’.  ‘Brain Drain’ was an improvement. 

 

Did they jump the shark?  Sure.  The albums they made after Dee Dee departed were pretty lifeless.  Although they had fun a moment or two. 

[John Battles]

Some of these things take time ....I always thought End of The Century had some great , catchy songs. It only REALLY sounds like a Spector job on the obvious number...But , you can almost hear them in a tug of war over sound , style and substance. Spector had'nt done very much since "Let It Be''(Well , Ronnie Spector's 45 on Apple was great.) and John Lennon's "Rock'n'Roll" (Actually , nothing since the latter.). He may have thought The Ramones were his ticket to street cred , as much as they may have thought he was their ticket to commercial success. The Ramones , and it's criminal , but it's so , were not destined to become a BIG group , raking in major coin , until they started dying.

"Pleasant Dreams " is REALLY a case of experimenting with different styles ....some that I personally , like better than others , but , I don't dislike any of it. I used to , but it's grown on me over the years. I bought it at a flea market , in '84 , I think.

[Tyler]

Someone uploaded the pleasant dreams demo in almost its entirety. Nothing new, but it's really cool to listen to it altogether to get an idea of how it could've sounded with some punkier songs, rawer production, and a couple less experimental tunes. Might've been their definite  album ever. (it's missing the demos "kicks to try" and "stars in this town" though that were included on the rhino reissue.)

[Rev. Norb]

That demo was floating around the internet a few years ago...i had it and it wound up getting deleted. There was a bunch more to it -- songs like "Touring" which didn't see the light of day til "Mondo Bizarro" in 1992 were on there.

Tyler said:

Someone uploaded the pleasant dreams demo in almost its entirety. Nothing new, but it's really cool to listen to it altogether to get an idea of how it could've sounded with some punkier songs, rawer production, and a couple less experimental tunes. Might've been their definite  album ever. (it's missing the demos "kicks to try" and "stars in this town" though that were included on the rhino reissue.)

[Tyler]

Cool! Yeah, they included the demo of "touring" on the one uploaded above (the actual finished one with the keyboards was included on Rhino reissue too, i think). I remember a lot of stuff was on the More Unreleased Tracks bootleg, except "stares in this town" was called "Nothings gonna change you" or something like that.

 But until yesterday, I NEVER heard the demo for "sitting in my room" (which I think really works well as an opener), and I had no idea that "yeah yeah" was from this session either. When i first heard it on All the Stuff and More Volume 2, I figured it was a demo from the same era as "slug". 

I still love pleasant dreams the way it turned out, but, for sake of discussion:

- If "This Business is Killing me" was replaced with "yeah yeah"

- If "we want the airwaves" was replaced with "sleeping troubles"

- If' "9 to 5  world" was replaced with "kicks to try"

- and one of the ballads (Don't go, or 7-11..really only need one) was replaced with "stares in this town.

......combined with rawer production similar to the demo, Pleasant Dreams would've been a fucking monster.

 

[John Battles]

sOMEONE POINTED THAT OUT , EARLIER. THAT "TOURING" DATES BACK TO THE "PLEASANT DREAMS ERA....JOEY POINTED OUT THAT HE LET A RECORD COMPANY USE THE SONG FOR A GIRL GROUP or Spector OR DOO WOP tribute (I forget which )project , and they changed it to "Doreen" , about a girl who loves to travel. "Doreen , Doreen , she's never boring". Joey was'nt too thriled. But , it's probably the thing that motivated him to release a version by The Ramones.
Rev. Norb said:

That demo was floating around the internet a few years ago...i had it and it wound up getting deleted. There was a bunch more to it -- songs like "Touring" which didn't see the light of day til "Mondo Bizarro" in 1992 were on there.

Tyler said:

Someone uploaded the pleasant dreams demo in almost its entirety. Nothing new, but it's really cool to listen to it altogether to get an idea of how it could've sounded with some punkier songs, rawer production, and a couple less experimental tunes. Might've been their definite  album ever. (it's missing the demos "kicks to try" and "stars in this town" though that were included on the rhino reissue.)

[John Battles]

Thanks for posting this. I forget , which among these tracks I have or have'nt heard.....But , the demos included on the Rhino reissues more than suggest what a monster a lot of these albums could have been , or , a bigger monster than some of them already were
 
Tyler said:

Someone uploaded the pleasant dreams demo in almost its entirety. Nothing new, but it's really cool to listen to it altogether to get an idea of how it could've sounded with some punkier songs, rawer production, and a couple less experimental tunes. Might've been their definite  album ever. (it's missing the demos "kicks to try" and "stars in this town" though that were included on the rhino reissue.)

[John Battles]

Wow. This sounds great. They could have released this for all us fan - geeks (Gooba gobba , one of us !) , just clean up a couple of rough edges....Or , not even. But , after "End of The Century" did'nt make it (Well , I don't mean in Europe and Japan. They love American music.) , the band was being further demoralized at every turn. Sire withdrew all promotional items (Barring those little LP size posters that were popular in the late 80's.). Gary Kurfirst was busting their balls because Talking Heads were selling so many more concert shirts than they were ( I have this on a VERY good source , and I'm hardly surprised.), and then there was getting billed below Metallica and Soundgarden on the Lollapalooza tour. Those bands sold more records , but , they both owe a substantial debt to The Ramones. Even Dust , with Marc Bell (Marky Ramone), was beating Metallica to the punch by more than a dozen years , by combining proto - Speed Metal with Spaghetti Western embellishments.  The Ramones seldom had to open for anyone (I saw them open for Iggy , but , I THOUGHT they'd be given equal billing , same set length , same access to sound and lights.) , but , it was pretty clear , Lollapalooza was their last tour , barring the brief stadium tour of Argentina . The three bands could've had equal billing ,if that was the only way to satisfy everybody's ego , AND give the elders their due respect.  
 
John Battles said:

sOMEONE POINTED THAT OUT , EARLIER. THAT "TOURING" DATES BACK TO THE "PLEASANT DREAMS ERA....JOEY POINTED OUT THAT HE LET A RECORD COMPANY USE THE SONG FOR A GIRL GROUP or Spector OR DOO WOP tribute (I forget which )project , and they changed it to "Doreen" , about a girl who loves to travel. "Doreen , Doreen , she's never boring". Joey was'nt too thriled. But , it's probably the thing that motivated him to release a version by The Ramones.
Rev. Norb said:

That demo was floating around the internet a few years ago...i had it and it wound up getting deleted. There was a bunch more to it -- songs like "Touring" which didn't see the light of day til "Mondo Bizarro" in 1992 were on there.

Tyler said:

Someone uploaded the pleasant dreams demo in almost its entirety. Nothing new, but it's really cool to listen to it altogether to get an idea of how it could've sounded with some punkier songs, rawer production, and a couple less experimental tunes. Might've been their definite  album ever. (it's missing the demos "kicks to try" and "stars in this town" though that were included on the rhino reissue.)